Joe: i voted no on everything except the redistricting
and the parental notice Jim: hrm.. i’m not a fan of that one
i thought the parental notice one was a bit odd
didn’t really like it Joe: oh . . .i figure this . . .. when else could someone have surgery and NOT have their doctor have to inform the parents
it’s a medical issue for me
not an abortionissue Jim: well… i don’t think the inform is an issue… isn’t it informBEFORE the operation? Joe: yeah . . when would that happen before any surgery? Jim: well.. i’d have been okay with informing parents without a restritction on when
such as after
the reason i say this, is that i feel it’s like people trying to push legislation to solve a problem that exists within the family
if it got to the point where a child was trying to get an operation without the family’s consent, the problem is in the family… and the government should stay out of it
are they required to inform parents before any other operation? Joe: i think so
besides i view abortion as murder
which is the ultimate externality Jim: oh intersting… all abortion? Joe: legislate to your heart’s content
yeah Jim: day after pill? Joe: yeah Jim: wow
okay Joe: i used to think abortion was okay in case of rape and incest
but then that’s just murder
only time i think it woudl be justifiable is when a woman’s life is at stake Jim: so you’re claim is that allowing abortion of any kind is murder Joe: yeah Jim: sorry “your” Joe: although if you odn’t believe abortion is murder then . . . it doesn’t really matter Jim: while i don’t disagree with you, i don’t think legislating it away is the right way to go Joe: well if you assume it’s murder, then you have to legislate Jim: yes and no
to a lesser degree, the government took an alternative route with alcohol
they believed it to morally incorrect but it was too costly to legislate it out both monetarily and socially
they tried mind you
but ultimately, it just creates another market that was unregulatable
i don’t think overturning roe vs wade will stop abortions
but it will stop abortions by trained medical staff Joe: well the difference is alcohol is not murder Jim: well… yes and no… alcohol is probably murderous in result many times Joe: yeah but it is not necessarily the case that it is Jim: well sure, but then neither is the day after pill
not necessarily anyways Joe: okay agreed . . . . but then you have day after pill which may or may not destroy a fetilized egg Jim: correct
and you have drunks who may or may not drive Joe: at a certain point when you know the egg is fertilized then you have life correct? Jim: correct Joe: which means that once you know . . .. then any other point is murder Jim: correct
but thats my opinion and your opinion
but banning it via law wont prevent the murder Joe: right . .. but we can criminalize it because it affects the lives of others Jim: if the goal is actually to prevent the murder, legislation wont fix it Joe: just like we criminalize drunk driving Jim: sure… but it’s virtually unenforceable
would you require doctors to report a crime when they suspect their patient of committing a home abortion? Joe: enforcement and justice are two different things
no i woudl not beucase that is compelling behavior
but . . . . .the point is they could call in when they want to
that’s how we catch ALL criminal behavior
no criminal law is 100 percent enforceable Jim: this one is literally unenforceable
in general, crimes that are enforceable affect people who can report them Joe: well i could report my friend Jim: you cuold Joe: and that’s an issue of proof Jim: but then your frirend probably wouldn’t tell you that they had an abortion Joe: and not an issue of whether the law is proper
we have a lot of difficult to prove crimes Jim: a law can be “proper” in that it support morals that we support, but not beneficial Joe: like murder . . driving under the influence .. .
correct i agree Jim: i believe that making abortion illegal would show that our country respects the morals itself more than the people it affects
i believe this because the abortions will still happen, but now we’ve ostracized a segment of society Joe: well that’s the thing . . . i’m not assuming that abortion is about morals Jim: and it is Joe: im assuming that abortion is about murder
which you can use as a different standard Jim: but why pass a law that does not prevent that which you disdain?
when it is illegal, you no longer have any tools with which to regulate it’s occurrence Joe: it’s not an issue of disdain or not . .. . it’s about whether people’s behaviro affects the rights of others . . .in cases of murder . .. the ultimate killer of rights, there is no room for compromise
of course that doesn’t mean we don’t do things to encourage baby growth Jim: i guess i disagree with you on that. a law banning abortion is still a compromise Joe: ie . . .. . subsidies for adoption . .. . . safe harbor laws
and the sort Jim: it’s a compromise in that we can feel good that we legislated our morals, but we didn’t stop the thing which we wanted to stop
in other words, in practical tangible ways, i feel a ban accomplishes little but move the crime to the underground
no doctor to try to convince you otherwise
no friends to talk to you about it
no more guidance counselors to talk about it with you
you have to make a decision in secret of you’re going to jail
well.. not you… but you nkow what i mean Joe: well that doesn’t mean there can’t be guidance counselors
or friends to consult Jim: oh?
suppose there’s a government run guidance couselor
or any guidance couselor Joe: we have no duty to report a crime
it’s an assumption in law Jim: er… wait.. so then whats the point?
if we wouldn’t punish them when they break the law, why bother making one? Joe: we would punish them if they were caught Jim: … by say a guidance counselor Joe: if the guidance counselor decided to turn them in Jim: correct Joe: but that should be a decision the guidance counselor makes on their own Jim: so if you were pregnant and were strugling with it…. why would you talk to a guidance counselor who might turn you in? Joe: heell i wouldn’t Jim: so then how does this law work at the ground level of social interactios? Joe: i don’t know .. . but i’m just arguing a jusitification for the law . .. . it’s the same reason we criminalize ALL voluntary murders Jim: well… yes and no
we don’t criminalize pulling the plug
we don’t criminalize putting other animals to death after they’ve suffered a non life threatening injury Joe: first im talking about humans Jim: how about pulling the plug? Joe: second pulling the plug only happens when someone is brain dead Jim: okay Joe: or at least that’s where i set the standard Jim: so then lets wrap this around full circle Joe: i mean that line is continually moving because of science Jim: how much brain activity is required in a fetus to determine that they are alive?
organs don’t form in the first day or two Joe: well . .. this is where christianity comes in . . .right? i believe life at conception Jim: my point isn’t that i disagree with you, but rather that our laws make compromises on the morality beliefs of some because not all of us agree Joe: ergo . . terminating a known conception is murder
of course that allows for the day after pill becuase i don’t know yet whether there is conception Jim: sure… and i agree with you… and i would never ask someone to abort a child
but we don’t live in a religious bubble… and i feel like trying to legistlate our christian morals works now only because we are the majority
when i think about these laws, i think about if i were in the minority… suppose a law came about where down syndrome children must be aborted Joe: well i don’t agree with legislating morals Jim: wait what?
hahah Joe: that’s why my decision on whether to legislate is whether your behavior interfere with other’s being or rights
ie externatlities
assuming that life begins at conception . . .. abortion is the ultimate interference . .. ie murder Jim: geez that opens up a whole new can of worms
especially in the case of rape Joe: why rape?
rape is crime Jim: well… a woman’s rights were violated Joe: that affects other’s rights Jim: now suppose she conceives Joe: that’s clearly affecting someone Jim: it could be said that the existence of the conception modifies the implicit rights of the woman Joe: correct
because you’re killing someone Jim: then how d you balance the rights of the woman to the rights of the child? Joe: where current science dtermine the health of the mother to be at risk for the birth abortion is allowed Jim: aren’t we explicitly saying that the rights of the mother in 95% of the cases is forfeit then?
how will a person who is raped recover the rights that she had before she was raped?
now i agree that rape conceptions are ultra rare
something like < 1% Joe: well rape doesn’t justify murder Jim: sure, but we’re punishing the wrong person Joe: no we punish the rapist Jim: and the victim Joe: but the decision for abortion is a second decision Jim: correct
so now we’re punishing the victim
how do you balance that? Joe: by saying that rape doesn’t justifiy murder
this is assuming that conception is beginning of life Jim: okay… so now what does a mother do with an unwanted child? Joe: if you don’t hold that view . . . well then this whole thing falls apart Jim: i already hold that view
my point is that it wont work in practical society Joe: why not? Jim: because the murder will occur anyways and the goal which you sought to achieve is not achieved
so lets say a girl is raped
shjould she go to the police? Joe: well. . . . that’s an issue of enforcement . . . using that argument it says that we shouldn’t criminalize theft because 95 percent of theft is never caught
and 99% of driving under the influence is never caught
the law exists to provide disincentive to do behaviro that is damaging ot others Jim: it’s not apples to apples… theft is not murder, nor does it permanently affect the life of a person
if we assert that murder is a worse crime, then it befits that we take more care in our decisions upon it Joe: well you’re brining up the point of unwanted pregnancy Jim: correct Joe: granted that rape is probably the worst case of unwanted pregnancy Jim: yep Joe: but that’s the point of the law .. . .in a sense you’re treating all unwanted pregnancy the same Jim: i agree thats what the law does, but i disagree about what i think the law should do Joe: okay . .. we should have this discussion in person during thanksgiving
i must go exercise now Jim: k
ttyl
… Oh how you make me laugh. I’ve recently been bombarded with political discussions left and right. And that’s fitting with the current elections coming up in what I believe to be one of the most volatile times I’ve had the pleasure of being alive in. That said, some of the arguments my friends have given me for voting one way or another sometimes makes me laugh. Here’s my favorite:
You need to vote for McCain because…
If you don’t, you’ll need to explain to God why you voted for a man who kills innocent babies.
Wow. Strongly worded. And not a bad point either. But here are some things that voting for McCain also gets you:
1. You can forget all that charitable stuff about feeding the poor and what not.
2. You sure as heck aren’t embracing a candidate of love and respect.
3. You get to kill a bunch of people in other countries as he continues to bang his head against the brick wall in his militaristic inclinations towards other countries.
So those are my choices. Neither is really pleasant, but I do think the “THINK OF THE BABIES” argument is getting weaker given that a McCain administration would likely end up with us invading a couple more countries with mounting death tolls in the not too distant future.
Chris Cheng: there are some chinese food products imported here with melanine
JayWuTang8: uh oh
i ate fried rice tonight
Chris Cheng: yeah.. just don’t eat chinese milk products
oh watever
thats fine
no white rabbit candy
etc
JayWuTang8: there’s eggs!
Chris Cheng: MILK
JayWuTang8: same animal
On a completely different note, this video clip was posted on digg… and it’s EXTREMELY PAINFUL for software engineers to watch:
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