Joe: i voted no on everything except the redistricting
and the parental notice
Jim: hrm.. i’m not a fan of that one
i thought the parental notice one was a bit odd
didn’t really like it
Joe: oh . . .i figure this . . .. when else could someone have surgery and NOT have their doctor have to inform the parents
it’s a medical issue for me
not an abortionissue
Jim: well… i don’t think the inform is an issue… isn’t it informBEFORE the operation?
Joe: yeah . . when would that happen before any surgery?
Jim: well.. i’d have been okay with informing parents without a restritction on when
such as after
the reason i say this, is that i feel it’s like people trying to push legislation to solve a problem that exists within the family
if it got to the point where a child was trying to get an operation without the family’s consent, the problem is in the family… and the government should stay out of it
are they required to inform parents before any other operation?
Joe: i think so
besides i view abortion as murder
which is the ultimate externality
Jim: oh intersting… all abortion?
Joe: legislate to your heart’s content
yeah
Jim: day after pill?
Joe: yeah
Jim: wow
okay
Joe: i used to think abortion was okay in case of rape and incest
but then that’s just murder
only time i think it woudl be justifiable is when a woman’s life is at stake
Jim: so you’re claim is that allowing abortion of any kind is murder
Joe: yeah
Jim: sorry “your”
Joe: although if you odn’t believe abortion is murder then . . . it doesn’t really matter
Jim: while i don’t disagree with you, i don’t think legislating it away is the right way to go
Joe: well if you assume it’s murder, then you have to legislate
Jim: yes and no
to a lesser degree, the government took an alternative route with alcohol
they believed it to morally incorrect but it was too costly to legislate it out both monetarily and socially
they tried mind you
but ultimately, it just creates another market that was unregulatable
i don’t think overturning roe vs wade will stop abortions
but it will stop abortions by trained medical staff
Joe: well the difference is alcohol is not murder
Jim: well… yes and no… alcohol is probably murderous in result many times
Joe: yeah but it is not necessarily the case that it is
Jim: well sure, but then neither is the day after pill
not necessarily anyways
Joe: okay agreed . . . . but then you have day after pill which may or may not destroy a fetilized egg
Jim: correct
and you have drunks who may or may not drive
Joe: at a certain point when you know the egg is fertilized then you have life correct?
Jim: correct
Joe: which means that once you know . . .. then any other point is murder
Jim: correct
but thats my opinion and your opinion
but banning it via law wont prevent the murder
Joe: right . .. but we can criminalize it because it affects the lives of others
Jim: if the goal is actually to prevent the murder, legislation wont fix it
Joe: just like we criminalize drunk driving
Jim: sure… but it’s virtually unenforceable
would you require doctors to report a crime when they suspect their patient of committing a home abortion?
Joe: enforcement and justice are two different things
no i woudl not beucase that is compelling behavior
but . . . . .the point is they could call in when they want to
that’s how we catch ALL criminal behavior
no criminal law is 100 percent enforceable
Jim: this one is literally unenforceable
in general, crimes that are enforceable affect people who can report them
Joe: well i could report my friend
Jim: you cuold
Joe: and that’s an issue of proof
Jim: but then your frirend probably wouldn’t tell you that they had an abortion
Joe: and not an issue of whether the law is proper
we have a lot of difficult to prove crimes
Jim: a law can be “proper” in that it support morals that we support, but not beneficial
Joe: like murder . . driving under the influence .. .
correct i agree
Jim: i believe that making abortion illegal would show that our country respects the morals itself more than the people it affects
i believe this because the abortions will still happen, but now we’ve ostracized a segment of society
Joe: well that’s the thing . . . i’m not assuming that abortion is about morals
Jim: and it is
Joe: im assuming that abortion is about murder
which you can use as a different standard
Jim: but why pass a law that does not prevent that which you disdain?
when it is illegal, you no longer have any tools with which to regulate it’s occurrence
Joe: it’s not an issue of disdain or not . .. . it’s about whether people’s behaviro affects the rights of others . . .in cases of murder . .. the ultimate killer of rights, there is no room for compromise
of course that doesn’t mean we don’t do things to encourage baby growth
Jim: i guess i disagree with you on that. a law banning abortion is still a compromise
Joe: ie . . .. . subsidies for adoption . .. . . safe harbor laws
and the sort
Jim: it’s a compromise in that we can feel good that we legislated our morals, but we didn’t stop the thing which we wanted to stop
in other words, in practical tangible ways, i feel a ban accomplishes little but move the crime to the underground
no doctor to try to convince you otherwise
no friends to talk to you about it
no more guidance counselors to talk about it with you
you have to make a decision in secret of you’re going to jail
well.. not you… but you nkow what i mean
Joe: well that doesn’t mean there can’t be guidance counselors
or friends to consult
Jim: oh?
suppose there’s a government run guidance couselor
or any guidance couselor
Joe: we have no duty to report a crime
it’s an assumption in law
Jim: er… wait.. so then whats the point?
if we wouldn’t punish them when they break the law, why bother making one?
Joe: we would punish them if they were caught
Jim: … by say a guidance counselor
Joe: if the guidance counselor decided to turn them in
Jim: correct
Joe: but that should be a decision the guidance counselor makes on their own
Jim: so if you were pregnant and were strugling with it…. why would you talk to a guidance counselor who might turn you in?
Joe: heell i wouldn’t
Jim: so then how does this law work at the ground level of social interactios?
Joe: i don’t know .. . but i’m just arguing a jusitification for the law . .. . it’s the same reason we criminalize ALL voluntary murders
Jim: well… yes and no
we don’t criminalize pulling the plug
we don’t criminalize putting other animals to death after they’ve suffered a non life threatening injury
Joe: first im talking about humans
Jim: how about pulling the plug?
Joe: second pulling the plug only happens when someone is brain dead
Jim: okay
Joe: or at least that’s where i set the standard
Jim: so then lets wrap this around full circle
Joe: i mean that line is continually moving because of science
Jim: how much brain activity is required in a fetus to determine that they are alive?
organs don’t form in the first day or two
Joe: well . .. this is where christianity comes in . . .right? i believe life at conception
Jim: my point isn’t that i disagree with you, but rather that our laws make compromises on the morality beliefs of some because not all of us agree
Joe: ergo . . terminating a known conception is murder
of course that allows for the day after pill becuase i don’t know yet whether there is conception
Jim: sure… and i agree with you… and i would never ask someone to abort a child
but we don’t live in a religious bubble… and i feel like trying to legistlate our christian morals works now only because we are the majority
when i think about these laws, i think about if i were in the minority… suppose a law came about where down syndrome children must be aborted
Joe: well i don’t agree with legislating morals
Jim: wait what?
hahah
Joe: that’s why my decision on whether to legislate is whether your behavior interfere with other’s being or rights
ie externatlities
assuming that life begins at conception . . .. abortion is the ultimate interference . .. ie murder
Jim: geez that opens up a whole new can of worms
especially in the case of rape
Joe: why rape?
rape is crime
Jim: well… a woman’s rights were violated
Joe: that affects other’s rights
Jim: now suppose she conceives
Joe: that’s clearly affecting someone
Jim: it could be said that the existence of the conception modifies the implicit rights of the woman
Joe: correct
because you’re killing someone
Jim: then how d you balance the rights of the woman to the rights of the child?
Joe: where current science dtermine the health of the mother to be at risk for the birth abortion is allowed
Jim: aren’t we explicitly saying that the rights of the mother in 95% of the cases is forfeit then?
how will a person who is raped recover the rights that she had before she was raped?
now i agree that rape conceptions are ultra rare
something like < 1%
Joe: well rape doesn’t justify murder
Jim: sure, but we’re punishing the wrong person
Joe: no we punish the rapist
Jim: and the victim
Joe: but the decision for abortion is a second decision
Jim: correct
so now we’re punishing the victim
how do you balance that?
Joe: by saying that rape doesn’t justifiy murder
this is assuming that conception is beginning of life
Jim: okay… so now what does a mother do with an unwanted child?
Joe: if you don’t hold that view . . . well then this whole thing falls apart
Jim: i already hold that view
my point is that it wont work in practical society
Joe: why not?
Jim: because the murder will occur anyways and the goal which you sought to achieve is not achieved
so lets say a girl is raped
shjould she go to the police?
Joe: well. . . . that’s an issue of enforcement . . . using that argument it says that we shouldn’t criminalize theft because 95 percent of theft is never caught
and 99% of driving under the influence is never caught
the law exists to provide disincentive to do behaviro that is damaging ot others
Jim: it’s not apples to apples… theft is not murder, nor does it permanently affect the life of a person
if we assert that murder is a worse crime, then it befits that we take more care in our decisions upon it
Joe: well you’re brining up the point of unwanted pregnancy
Jim: correct
Joe: granted that rape is probably the worst case of unwanted pregnancy
Jim: yep
Joe: but that’s the point of the law .. . .in a sense you’re treating all unwanted pregnancy the same
Jim: i agree thats what the law does, but i disagree about what i think the law should do
Joe: okay . .. we should have this discussion in person during thanksgiving
i must go exercise now
Jim: k
ttyl
Civil Discourse… After the Fact
23andMe FTW!
Time Magazine just released an article about the top 50 inventions of 2008. And look who’s at the top of the list!
The Religious Right…
… Oh how you make me laugh. I’ve recently been bombarded with political discussions left and right. And that’s fitting with the current elections coming up in what I believe to be one of the most volatile times I’ve had the pleasure of being alive in. That said, some of the arguments my friends have given me for voting one way or another sometimes makes me laugh. Here’s my favorite:
You need to vote for McCain because…
If you don’t, you’ll need to explain to God why you voted for a man who kills innocent babies.
Wow. Strongly worded. And not a bad point either. But here are some things that voting for McCain also gets you:
1. You can forget all that charitable stuff about feeding the poor and what not.
2. You sure as heck aren’t embracing a candidate of love and respect.
3. You get to kill a bunch of people in other countries as he continues to bang his head against the brick wall in his militaristic inclinations towards other countries.
So those are my choices. Neither is really pleasant, but I do think the “THINK OF THE BABIES” argument is getting weaker given that a McCain administration would likely end up with us invading a couple more countries with mounting death tolls in the not too distant future.
Genus, Phylum…
Chris Cheng: there are some chinese food products imported here with melanine
JayWuTang8: uh oh
i ate fried rice tonight
Chris Cheng: yeah.. just don’t eat chinese milk products
oh watever
thats fine
no white rabbit candy
etc
JayWuTang8: there’s eggs!
Chris Cheng: MILK
JayWuTang8: same animal
On a completely different note, this video clip was posted on digg… and it’s EXTREMELY PAINFUL for software engineers to watch:
I want this…
… house.
I happened to pass by an open house in dave’s neighborhood and decided to stop by at:
14210 Wild Plum Lane Los Altos Hills, CA 94022
Let me tell you, this thing was magnificent. The pictures don’t do it justice. Unfortunately, it’s a little out of my price range sitting at a pretty 5.5M. Of course with a nice 30 year fixed rate mortgage…
23andme Results!
I got my results back! My username is ckcheng if you want to share your data with me. Also, if you sign up for a demo account (free), let me know and I can show you my results!
Sneak peak: I have two working copies of ALDH2! This means little or no flushing reaction from alcohol!
Election 2008
I talk about politics too much. I know I shouldn’t because there are simply too many people passionate about the issues and our discussions are pretty much fruitless. I’ve never seen someone switch a vote or an allegiance simply because I spoke to them about it, but this year, I can’t let it slide. This year, we have, from what I can tell with my limited life span, to be the most important election I have ever witnessed. We’ve got some incredibly important issues at stake that will change the way we live as global citizens in a world that’s largely becoming more and more tumultuous, along with an economy that everyone would agree isn’t that strong.
So now we’re faced with a decision between two candidates who probably couldn’t be more different. One, young and energetic. The other older and experienced, but I can’t help but wonder… why would anyone who has longer than 10 years to live vote for John McCain? I can’t figure the guy out. His economy policy lowers taxes… but mostly for the rich. He wants to spend more money in Iraq, money that we don’t have because he’s lowering taxes. His age is certainly an issue, and he’s got these glib little comments spouting out of his mouth all the time that make me cringe as I imagine his gaffs on an international stage were he to be elected.
So why are people supporting this guy? I mean seriously. Most people will pay LESS in taxes under Obama. The government will likely spend less under Obama. From a completely selfish standpoint, Obama still takes it. But even if you’re altruistic in the purest sense, what makes McCain in any way better? I just can’t figure it out. As I listened to the RNC speech today by Sarah Palin, I just felt disgust at what amounted to a bunch of petty attacks that I could only construe as misleading. She claims Obama will raise taxes. This is true, but not for most Americans. She claims that the government will spend more under Obama. This is most likely false. The war is costing us a fortune. I don’t think anyone doubts that drawing down military activity as opposed to increasing our stay in the Middle East will help lower government spending.
So now I’m just baffled, frustrated, and outright pissed. I feel like with the support from all those people in the RNC, we’re in for a tighter race than I’d like. The GOP would like to think McCain is a maverick, that he’ll do what’s right even if he has to break party lines. Well, history hasn’t really shown that to be true so I hope we’re not just throwing away our future simply because we believe that someone who’s been a POW is intrinsically a sound choice.
I can has Hug?
Too Funny to Pass Up
This super mario comic made me laugh…
Star!
Engineers… are WHAT?!
Yesterday afternoon found me hanging out with Jay and some of his friends from college. We were wandering around downtown Palo Alto for their Art & Wine festival. For the most part, the art was pleasant but we didn’t even bother with the wine, but the point of my little story here occurs later on when we grab a drink at a local pub there.
A little synopsis first: Most of Jay’s friends in this group work on the business side of their company and a couple of them were currently on the east coast pursuing graduate degrees in either medicine or business. I don’t know how it happened, but they started talking about engineers, and I was thinking “oh man… here comes the engineer bashing…” I mean… we ALL know that MBAs love and respect engineers as vital to their business, each as a unique individual with their own set of skills. Right. They would NEVER just treat us as a cog or a cost center right?
Thats kind of the mentality I was in, but then I was pleasantly surprised when a couple of them went on to say they “miss” engineers and how there aren’t enough of them on the east coast. It was bizarre. The went on to say that engineers, while socially awkward upon first contact, become more fun to hang out with the better you know them. They contrasted this with MBAs who they claim are fun to talk to at first… but become unbearable with time.
The kicker? They even went on to say “Engineers are cool.” WHAT?? I’ve never heard such a statement! Jay and I couldn’t help but look at each other and chuckle. Hey, I’ll take whatever complements I can get, but this one was pretty surprising. In a good way.